Welcome to The Elfster Podcast, brought to you by Elfster, a gifting platform that strengthens social bonds by increasing acts of generosity. In each episode, we sit down with an expert to share stories about digital retail trends and talk about the future of e-commerce. Our host is Peter Imburg, the CEO and Founder of Elfster, who has dedicated his career to connecting communities, audiences and brands.
In this episode of the Elfster Podcast we speak with Dana Holmes, Commerce Editor at CNN Underscored author whose experience building Gifts.com, the Metro Mom Club and her own Media company makes her the "Queen of Gifts". Learn more about Peter and Dana here:
Peter ImburgPeter Imburg:
Hi. I'm Peter Imburg, Founder and CEO of Elfster. I'm here today with Dana Holmes for our next episode of the Elfster podcast. I'm so thrilled to have the queen of gifts here with us today. Thank you, Dana, for joining us.
Dana Holmes:
Thanks for having me.
Peter Imburg:
We really appreciate your taking the time out to meet with us on one of our first podcasts. You're one of the first people we thought we had to connect with for the podcast.
Peter Imburg:
Our history goes way back and we've been working with Dana for years. I remember when you were a star on the rise at gifts.com. I had actually only recently launched Elfster and, it was funny, because I tracked down the old merchandiser for Red Envelope, which was originally the big gift site on the internet. Her name was Kristine Dang. She was giving me some perspective and ideas based on her experience. She said, "You've got to look at Gifts.com."
Peter Imburg:
That site is amazing. They really are doing it right. It's from scratch. It's all recommendations. All the troubles that we had about supply and design and shipping and et cetera, they've left to the merchants and they just have the freedom to find the best gifts out there. It's a merchandiser retreat. That's what she told me. She's like, "You should be looking at how they're doing things." With that, I was very curious. We just thought, "Gosh, we gotta get out there and connect with gifts.com." I remember shortly after that is when we first partnered there, and you were Dana Schultz at that time.
Dana Holmes:
That's right.
Peter Imburg:
I'm just kind of curious what you thought when you heard about this elf company reaching out to you when we first met.
Dana Holmes:
Sure. I know. It feels like so much has changed yet so much is the same with internet applications and shopping in general since then. But back then, I remember you guys coming in and us learning more about Elfster and thinking about how our business models could work together and how they're different. I just remember thinking that Elfster was such a great idea because people's lives are on the move now more than ever and today, even more than then. People are living in other countries and other places. Especially right with the pandemic, people aren't able to see each other as much. So it comes all the way back from then to now, that it's just a great service for people who are trying to stay connected with the people they love and care about and have shared interests with. So at gifts.com at the time, we were just kind of fascinated with this thing that was so simple and yet so powerful. I'm really glad that you brought it to our attention.
Peter Imburg:
How did Gifts.com... How did you get started in that? That was one of the first companies that Interactive Corp, I think built from the ground up. I think you were one of the original folks there. How did that happen? Why was that seen as such a great opportunity?
Dana Holmes:
Well, I was actually the sixth, I think, the sixth employee there? Maybe seventh. I don't know. But I was not a part of the incubation or the ideation portion of it. But Leigh Zarelli was the one who actually pitched the idea, from my understanding, and I don't know that much about it personally.
Dana Holmes:
They, IAC, wanted to try to figure out a business model, something new that they could start from the ground up. Gifts.com is the one that won that internal competition because people always struggle with what to get as a gift. It's a huge industry. There are people who spend so much money on presents in a year, and a lot of those presents go on unappreciated or they're just not the right gift. How do we help people not feel stressed about it? How do we help people spend the right budget on it? How do we help people connect with those that they want to connect with via gifts?
Dana Holmes:
So that was, from my understanding, the basis of how gifts.com started. And it kind of evolved over time with developments in the internet, like Facebook and social media in general, and digital marketing in general. Their original PR agency was a traditional PR agency and we quickly were like, we need to pivot to a digital PR agency to work with how to promote this business, because it was that long ago that digital marketing was still an up and coming topic. So, yeah. It was a fun journey.
Peter Imburg:
Well, you really seem to have a knack for it. You became the chief guru, if I remember the term right. The gift guru, and probably a corporate title that was even more impressive, at Gifts. How did you find your niche and identify great gifts and gift ideas for people?
Dana Holmes:
Well, you could say it runs in the family. My aunt was a VP at Russ Berrie for a long time, and she was always giving us these cool gifts. That was part of her job. I always thought that was the coolest idea to work for a company that focused on gifts. But that was growing up. Then in college, I started experimenting with doing some street team marketing and product launches. I helped Swiffer launch in store, and I helped for Ferrero Rocher chocolates launch in store. I started getting the marketing and product bug a little bit then. Then my last year of college, I helped the Home Shopping Network launch hsn.com, because it was that long ago that people were launching their websites. I wrote a ton of product descriptions and moderated celebrity chats on TV via the internet, which was a totally new thing to do.
Dana Holmes:
So I was really connecting products with the internet, with people in different audiences and all the different ways you can activate those audiences. Over time, it just kind of happened that I found this opportunity at gifts.com to come in at the ground level. I started there, actually, as a toy editor. I covered toys and I did public relations as a PR assistant. Over the seven plus years that I was there, I worked my way up to being the editor of teens and pets, and eventually became the one who ran social media and public relations. And, yeah. Basically I was a busy person. I became their spokesperson and I've done over a thousand interviews covering the topics of gifts, etiquette, and shopping all because of my time at gifts.com. So it really was a great tenure for me to have there for those seven plus years to go from just covering toys and assisting with public relations to running all that stuff. It was a really cool experience.
Peter Imburg:
A thousand interviews about gifts. That is incredible, and obviously why we think of you as the queen of gifts. How did that feel at first? Did that first start when you were at gifts.com?
Dana Holmes:
Yes, it did. And when I was much younger, I did some TV stuff and some modeling jobs and things. So I guess when I was at gifts.com, they were like, "She's the young cute one. Put her on TV." Luckily it worked out. I didn't flop. My first TV segment as a gift expert was on Fox and Friends. So it was a major national show, my first time on TV talking. That was a terrifying experience, but it worked out really well and I didn't have any hiccups.
Dana Holmes:
So they started pitching me more and more and more, and I did a ton of a ton of interviews. The cool thing about doing interviews is that it really helps you think more about what you do and how you do it because you really want, or at least me, because I'm a perfectionist, I really want to give the best I can give every time. So when I get these questions from media, I would sit there and really think about how do I give them the best ideas, and how do I give them the best solutions to their problems? That really helped me get better at my job.
Peter Imburg:
Was Fox and Friends a good interview? Or, did they stump you with any tough questions that made you really think on your feet, or did they let you come prepared?
Dana Holmes:
No, yeah. It was a tabletop segment. I went through, I think it was, the top gifts for under a hundred dollars for everybody in your family. I had two minutes to talk about 12 products. So it was just like a race to the finish line. But I was able to get a couple of jokes in there, a couple of demos in there, and I felt like it was a huge success for me.
Peter Imburg:
All right. This is a little self-serving now because this is one of my first interviews. I'm wondering if you have an idea of what has made your interviews really interesting, kept it feeling natural and conversational, and maybe what makes for a less enjoyable interview after your thousand plus interviews.
Dana Holmes:
Sure. I think preparing in advance, and practicing in advance, is a really important thing to do. Recording yourself, or looking at yourself in the mirror, watching other people, listening to other people who you think have done really good interviews, that's really helpful for me. I remember when I first started doing TV, I would watch the other people who would go on the Today Show and go on the other shows. I would watch how they move their body, and I would listen to how they talked or spoke, and I would just think about how can I integrate some of that into how I do it so that people will find me more engaging?
Dana Holmes:
Because when you first get up there, you're not very interesting, in general. People, the way that you talk with someone in person, is totally different than how you would talk with them on TV or in a podcast, for example, because it's just not that face to face, in person contact. So you have to provide more energy through your movements and through your voice and through all the other tools that you have at your disposal that you don't realize until you start watching and listening to others with that lens on.
Peter Imburg:
Thank you. Well, this is our third podcast. Right? So I am taking notes and that's a lot of good information. I want to go back to, now, the time when... I want to tell you a story that you actually don't completely know, you know part of. One day when, after we had done our partnership with gifts.com, it didn't work out great, as well as what we had hoped, I think, at the time. Gifts moved on, trying new things. We were trying new things. I remember waking up too early one day and I was tossing and turning and I was thinking, "Why aren't we working with the queen of gifts? I've got to get in touch with Dana. We've got to step up our game. We really do." That morning, fortunately, you're on the East Coast, I'm on the West Coast, so when you get an email at like eight in the morning, it doesn't seem that weird to you. I remember just reaching out like, "Dana, we've got to talk."
Dana Holmes:
Yes. I remember that.
Peter Imburg:
I'm feeling a crisis. Yeah. Do you remember that reach out? Maybe it was a little impulsive, I guess. How did that... You remember when I finally reached out to you that night?
Dana Holmes:
I do, definitely. Yes. That's how I got most of my clients, actually, for my print development agency that I started after I left gifts.com, Dana Holmes Media. Yeah, you weren't the only one who reached out to me saying, "I've been following you at gifts.com, and I see that you're on your own now and would love to see what you can do for my company." Definitely, I've never really had to seek clients. So it's been pretty great.
Peter Imburg:
Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that it was so easy for you to pick up clients and that maybe I wasn't the only one tossing and turning and looking for an expert to assist.
Dana Holmes:
Yeah. It's exciting. It's exciting when that happens. Every single time I get an email like that, I just think, "This is great." I love it. I love what I do. I love that it's memorable to other people, and I love that I can help. Yeah, it's always very exciting to get those emails.
Peter Imburg:
You've been an enormous help for us. Our merchandising manager, Meghan Tealdi has, I know, just really grown tremendously through collaborating with you for helping, you know, learning techniques, learning about trends, et cetera. It's just, I think, been really wonderful for her and I'm extremely grateful that we've had access to work with you in that regard. So, extremely grateful for your help in making us more and more professional. I think we're doing our best work ever now with you.
Dana Holmes:
Yeah. It's great to see how the business is growing. It's been a real pleasure to work with Meghan and help her look at things in a different way, and really think more deeply about the merchandising strategy. That's been really fun for me, and I know we have a really good working relationship. So it's been fun to watch it grow.
Peter Imburg:
Well. We are absolutely on a whole nother level compared to when we started. I think Meghan has done an amazing job of learning and being inspired with you. I think she just works really well with you, and we appreciate so much what a great mentor you've been for her, and a wealth of knowledge.
Dana Holmes:
Thanks.
Peter Imburg:
Now you are involved now with a new venture, and I see it almost, in a way, it seems kind of paralleling, in a way. You know, USA Interactive and, now, CNN stepping into this world of product recommendations and things. CNN Underscored. How did you get involved with CNN Underscored?
Dana Holmes:
It was kind of a roundabout entrance. I have been running my own company for six-ish years, after my son was born. I enjoyed working with lots of clients and having that flexible life when my kids were little. But then I started thinking I really want to work in house somewhere more. I want to have more of a family that I can be a part of and contribute to longer term, bigger goals, that I can roll out.
Dana Holmes:
So I put feelers out in 2019, in May, and within a few weeks, I had been hired as the Commerce Editor for Great Big Story, which is actually owned by CNN. It's a micro documentary company that makes really cool and inspiring videos about interesting stuff and people. It was originally touted as their answer to Vice and BuzzFeed, but it kind of became its own entity.
Dana Holmes:
They were looking into exploring written commerce focused content. That is kind of my sweet spot. So they hired me right away and I helped set that up for them. We felt like it was a good dovetail for me to kind of scootch over there after things were set up at Great Big Story.
Peter Imburg:
This is a fascinating trend. It seems to be happening with CNN and Underscored. We saw New York Times acquired Wirecutter, and there are other examples as well where, let's say, more traditional media companies are entering into e-commerce and product recommendation, as opposed to other more traditional kinds of advertising that they've generally built the business on. What does that say about how people are shopping now, and how news and earlier media companies are looking to monetize in the future?
Dana Holmes:
I think a lot of people are feeling overwhelmed by their options of what to get and where to get it, and they're more limited in their time. They have a lot going on in their lives. So I feel like a trusted source where they can look for advice on what to buy is worth so much to people, now more than ever. That's kind of how we started, how gifts.com was started, was to solve that problem in a way.
Dana Holmes:
But now it seems more powerful than ever that people are looking to be guided of how to spend their money wisely, how to spend less, how to be smarter about their shopping. They really are looking for that content. They're not just looking for product lists. Really they want... This is just my opinion, but it seems to be what I'm seeing with companies that I've worked with that content is really helping people shop. The written word is more powerful than ever when it comes to shopping right now, I feel, because people just need that guidance. It's something easy for them to scroll through, but they can still... They want to feel like they're buying something that means something, and just seeing a picture isn't enough anymore, I don't think.
Dana Holmes:
People have learned that quality can be bad even though the picture looks good, or it may take forever to arrive, or it may not last very long, or the color may be different when you get it. So having the written content around recommendations I think is really important, and is the future of shopping. And also the video component, as well. Showing the products, and talking about the products, and farming that out on social is really important.
Peter Imburg:
Underscored is a relatively new entrant to this. Obviously you're leading, for the newest trends, around these e-commerce trends, with more content around written or video, around product recommendations. Where there are companies that you saw that were starting to make a move and doing that well, that you thought were good models to consider?
Dana Holmes:
That's a good question. I feel like everybody has been trying to figure it out for a long time, and people have been trying a lot of different things. Definitely it is a hot button right now for people, for all kinds of companies and media companies, to be starting up these product recommendation arms of the business to drive more revenue, and then figuring out how to promote it from there and being a media company. I've seeing Insiders doing it. I think Forbes is doing it. It's all over the place. Tons of different media companies are now doing these kinds of programs because it can drive a lot of revenue, and you do have a built in audience to promote to already. So it seems like a natural extension, especially, like you said, as advertising dollars kind of weigh a little bit.
Peter Imburg:
Right. It's funny. One of the network aggregators for affiliate marketing had to coin their new term, what they called "Comm-tent", I think it was. "Comm-tent", like commerce and content.
Dana Holmes:
Oh, I love that.
Peter Imburg:
There were actually some new advertiser budgets coming, not strictly on the cost per action affiliate model, but also paid placements, kind of more in the spirit of traditional ad buying. What's your audience? How many impressions? Et cetera. Then doing a collaboration that way. So everything seems to be changing, going back and forth in different models. But certainly the one thing, I think, from the consumer standpoint, and this is something that I feel, there's just so many choices. You know? It's just so much out there. How do you find the difference between quality and value, and things that you might regret. I guess kind of going all the way back to what you're saying with gifts. Give a gift that's going to be loved and enjoyed, and not one that's going to end up in the back of your closet, never used, never enjoyed.
Dana Holmes:
Right. Exactly. I know in a New York Times interview I did a few years back, I had said... They asked me my thoughts on wishlists. At the time I said, "No one should use a wishlist. You should be grateful for what you get." And now, I don't know if I agree with myself. I think that wishlists are really important because you don't know each other as well as you used to. You don't see each other all the time. I have nieces and nephews who I want to get them something they're going to love, and I only see them once a year and talk to them a few times a year. It's just not the way to be where you really know who you're buying your gifts for. So I think wishlists are important.
Peter Imburg:
Yeah. You're not alone. It took me a while to come around to the idea of wishlists, which work well within Elfster and become, really, one of the most beloved features that we have. But it took me a while, because I remember when I first said it, like, "Ah, you know. I don't know I feel about that." But, yeah. They're coming of age I think. They're making more and more sense.
Peter Imburg:
Now may be a time for an etiquette question. "Do you share a wishlist?" I've not prepared you for this question, but it seems like-
Dana Holmes:
It is a good question. I think you have to tread lightly on it. Some people find that really offensive to receive a gift list. I think it's helpful to maybe ask in advance. Say, "My son's birthday is coming up. Obviously we don't expect a gift, but if you want to get him something, he is happy to share his wishlist." Or, something along those lines so that it feels a little like you have to buy something and here are the things you have to choose from. It's more like if you're stumped, check this out. And if not, don't worry about it. I think it has to be more like that. I think it's also helpful in the scenario of Elfster where you're setting up gift exchanges, where you have a set price limit, or whatever the various rules are. People can set up their wishlist to align with that so that it makes it a lot easier for everybody to get something that they'll like. I think it's really helpful there.
Peter Imburg:
Thank you. The expert word on the wishlists, an evolving a piece of etiquette over the times. That is very helpful. I'm going to think on that some more after our interview.
Peter Imburg:
Dana, it's been great to hear about your history, how you've become the queen of gifts, many things you've done, insights on the trends in shopping, in gift buying, and etiquette. Now I want to come to a part that I'm actually also very excited about, when we get down to specifics and some of your picks for this year. What do you think are going to be great gifts this year maybe for some specific types of people, that might be something new?
Dana Holmes:
Sure. Let's see. Well, really the way that I was thinking about this before we talked today was just about what people are thinking right now. I think that's always a great place to start when you're thinking about merchandising or thinking about gifts in general, what you want to buy for other people. Think about what they're going through. What is their life like? Starting there is really helpful.
Dana Holmes:
So obviously we're all kind of in the middle of this weird pandemic time. The economy feels a little uncertain. So I think keeping that in mind when you're shopping for other people is helpful. For example, giving them something that will make their life easier or make their home feel more cozy. Lounge wear is a really good gift idea this holiday season, more than ever. Maybe this year slippers are actually a good gift because people are wearing them. They're home all the time.
Dana Holmes:
Also subscription boxes have been just going gang busters for the last couple of years. Now with this pandemic full swing and people being home more, they are desperate for new things, and trying things, and making their lives easier from food subscriptions to... It's incredible how many different kinds of these things are out there. Books for kids, art projects, hot sauce. Really it's so far above and beyond what you ever knew. Succulent plant of the month. It's really amazing. I think those are a really great way to help people out this holiday season and give them a gift that will keep giving. The cool thing about subscriptions, too, is you can just get an individual a month and then they can choose to extend it. Or, you can sign them up for a year if you want to be a big spender. And they're not all expensive, either. Some of them are only $10 a month, and others can be a lot of money. It just depends on what you want to do. So I think those are good categories of products.
Dana Holmes:
Another category that I think is going to do well this holiday season is what I'm coining as "long-term luxury", and that's stuff that you'll spend money on, but it will last a lot longer. So if you get somebody a suitcase that's going to last for years and years and years, it's worth it because you don't have to buy 10 cheap ones over the same amount of time, or things like that. There are tons of categories that you could go into under that, but that's the example. Just getting something that will last a lot longer that costs more money, but you know it's worth it. I think people are leaning in that direction if they're going to spend money.
Dana Holmes:
Another thing that people will appreciate this holiday season is their traditions and their collections. Contributing to something that they feel connected to and already feel cozy about. I said cozy gifts are a big trend this year. I think that contributing to someone's collection is another way to do that, whether they collect ornaments or frog stuff or whatever it is. They love Star Wars. Contributing to people's happy place as a really great way to go this year.
Dana Holmes:
One other thing that I had seen that I think... It'll be interesting to see how it does this holiday season, but it's standing out to me right now. It's a toy called Tonies Box. It's the number three toy in Europe right now only behind Lego and Playmobile, and you can get it at Target and elsewhere. But it's like a... I don't even know how to describe it, but it's a box, and it comes with these little characters that you can stick on top of the box. It plays stories and it plays songs and the kids can totally control it themselves. It would remove screen time completely. It provides creative autonomy for kids, and you can collect all these characters that have their own stuff built into them. You can also create your own custom characters. You can put your own custom content onto the characters, as well. So if they're learning a foreign language, or if grandma wants to send them one where she's reading a story and they can listen to it again and again.
Dana Holmes:
That kind of stuff is just a really cool way to connect people, also. So I think it will be really interesting to see how that does in the United States this holiday season, but I'm definitely keeping my eye on it.
Peter Imburg:
Interesting. You've given me some things to think about here, and I'm going to check that out. Gosh, something that would remove screen time and give creativity, and trending around the globe, the Tonies Box. That sounds very cool. Also a lot of interesting thoughts, expanding my idea of what could be in a subscription box. I realize how much that had expanded. Long-term luxury, and slippers even. You know that's long been one of the most popular searches on our... It's funny. We have a "do not need" list and then we also have search trends, and some of the most popular things on the "do not need" are the most searched for items. The bath bomb, slippers, and candles. Simultaneously the most searched for and least wanted, strangely. So very interesting how that evolves this year.
Peter Imburg:
Dana, it's been great to spend this time with you and thank you so much for being with us here today. I really enjoyed catching up and hearing more about your story, hearing about trends you're seeing this year and beyond, and it's always a pleasure.
Dana Holmes:
Thank you so much for having me. This has been really fun.
Peter Imburg:
All right. Well, have a great day Dana.
Dana Holmes:
Thanks. You, too.